Do You Know Squat?

Shawn, thanks for the answer. I haven't read the book that you recommended, but do you follow their guidelines? Also, what are your thoughts on wide stance squats? Thanks!

Yes, I squat that way, and so does everybody I train or comes to me for advice. There is always somebody coming out and saying squats are bad or don't squat deep, the fact is that it is a very well researched topic and there is no reason in a healthy individual to not squat deep. Quite the contrary actually, it is better to squat to parallel for the knees then overloading a 1/4 squat with excess shearing on the ACL. The 1/4 squat or commonly known as the 90 degree knee squat allows the individual to load more weight then able to handle my the musculature properly.

Wide stance squat...well I personally don't like it because of the disadvantaged position of the hip joint and possible labrum impingment. Also there is excessive torque on the ACL as most lifters tend to drift the knees medially during the concentric portion of this movment. Then there is the loss of ankle mobility caused by little movement to no movement, this is due to the emphasis on shins parallel. Shins parallel to the ground is not a natural position and neither is the wide stance squat, now if you are looking to squat 800lbs then thats the way to go because it has a smaller range of motion....but its terrible for performance.

I agree that healthy individuals should squat deep, assuming they have the flexibility and form down. Wouldn't handling more weight through a wide stance squat allow for greater strength adaptations? Not that greater strength = improved performance, but to allow for neurological adaptation. And then to let cleans and other Olympic lifts take care of power, which would have greater performance gains? Not too say that all you should is wide stance squats, not to mention about how wide is wide.

What are your thoughts?

"Wouldn't handling more weight through a wide stance squat allow for greater strength adaptations?" Lets explore the different width of wides in relation to our conversation.

Sumo wide, In my opinion a very dangerous position to have loaded for previous mentioned reasons. Also has a very small range of motion which allows for heavy loads.

Powerlifting wide, just slightly outside what I prefer for my squats( I prefer just outside of shoulder width), but tend to use for my accommodating resistance box squats. Very safe but limits mobility in the hip and ankle. This is pretty easily remedied though. Great for strength adaptations as you have mentioned, in my opinion, the best position for lower body CNS training. This position is the best position for training the glutes and hamstrings with limited quad involvement if done properly. This width has a smaller range of motion than shoulder width but not as limited as the sumo...kind of the middle grounds for strength and best for posterior chain training.

Shoulder width, is great for strength gains and butt to calf depth squats...when I am training for O-lifts I use this width. There is no functional downside to this width, it requires good hip and ankle mobility and a strong core. The downside is a slightly limited loading due to the extra range of motion and heavier reliance on the quads, which can potentially limit High level CNS training (very debatable though).

These are generalizations of course because different torso:femur:tibia length ratios make different positions more anatomically correct for certain people.

My best squat is at slightly wider than shoulder width but this drastically reduced my movement efficiency in locomotion while increasing my vertical tremendously. So this is a relative topic..its all relative to what your goals are.

I think its important here to keep in mind the S.A.I.D. and Specificity principles when considering foot position and chronic adaptations in regards to a specific goal.

I'm loving this conversation...keep it going

I agree with the SAID principle. There are times and places for working on power, strength, etc. The squat is an overall great exercise that should be done by the majority of the population in order to increase their ability to perform activities of daily living. There are also modifications as well for individuals with upper body issues to do, such as DBs, until those issues are remedied.

I personally used powerlifting wide as you described as my major goal is strength, but we're back to SAID : )

What are your thoughts on bar placement? Low or high?

Hey Shawn,
Can I give you a quick scenario with one of my clients???:
-21 year old female athlete, mostly a runner, very strong legs.
- Does Crossfit twice a week, with additional running 3-4 days/week.
- Problem: Chest falls forward and loses balance when tries to do the Crossfit squat (deep) exercises.
- Second problem: I had her do body squats--90 degrees, toes and knees straight--and her chest was still falling down, and her knees were a little wobbly.

She has very strong legs and good balance, what do you think is keeping her from performing these power exercises properly???...

lol man..you are just hitting all the hot topics of squatting.

Low bar is safest in my opinion, it allows for better mechanics for the posterior chain as well as not loading high on the spine (lower cervical). Low bar also has more surface contact area for stabilizing the bar on the back instead of balancing on the traps. I have also been trained doing high bar squats which more directly correlate to the more upright position of the O-Lifts.

I don't know why all of my comments on my own post have been removed?!?! so go to my FB page and we can discuss this further if you like, or email me s.fears@hotmail.com

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Alaska-Fitness-Solutions/159113580779207

There are a couple of reasons that range from a weak core to femur length...if you post on my FB page we can dive deeper into this. I would do it on here but I really don't want to waste my time if IDEA is going to just delete it.

Alright..I'll bite. Lets take a look at a couple of possible reasons for the chest "falling" forward.

1) if her femur:tibia ratio leans toward a longer femur then she is going to need a wider squat stance...such as wider than shoulder(or possibly wider) not just hip width. I can go into more detail with other exercises needed to adjust compensations that can develop with a wider stance if you would like.

2) weak core can cause an issue here as well. what does her lumbar curve look like when she is squatting?

3) as a runner she might have synergistic dominance in her hamstrings and her glutes might need some work....goes hand in hand with the weak core issue.

4) strong legs don't mean anything without mobility. what is her ankle mobility like? if she has limited dorsal flexion then she will be forced to rock back and stick her butt out farther than necessary to get depth. This will cause her torso to lean forward and her butt to stick back. Now with this in mind think about a traditional powerlifting squat...they lead with the butt straight back to initiate the movement which is absolutely fine if you have a wider stance squat where the shins can stay perpendicular to the floor. If she has been taught to squat like this (knees behind toes) and her stance is to narrow it is impossible to go ass in the grass deep.

5) Where is her bar position? Is she high bar squatting or low bar squatting? A high bar squat will keep the torso more upright and a low bar will set the center of gravity in line with the scapula thoracic region which will put the shoulders forward more than a high bar squat. I personally prefer the low bar squat for heavy squatting and snatch body position carry over. The high bar back squat is a good way to load the legs closer to the body position of a power clean without doing a front squat.

Now with this all in mind lets look at your symptoms:
Wobbly knees - week hips
torso forward - ankle mobility and core strength
loss of balance - ankle mobility and hip stability

One more question...is she a quad dominant squatter or a hip and hamstring dominant squatter?

If you make a video and send it to me I can give you a more in-depth opinion of what is going on.

I see you are NASM certified so the solutions chart for the overhead squat assessment has some of what I've said in it and might be worth taking a look at as well

Shawn, very in depth and impressive. What do you typically recommend for hip stability?

First static => then dynamic

Second the glute med seems to be the big issue with this case so I would work through a progression starting with side plank and A frames( standing with sm band around ankles maintain "A" shape and rock back and forth from foot to foot)=> McGill side plank w/adduction (ball squeezed between feet)=> side plank with top leg abduction => farmers walk => farmers walk with single side load

Third the glute max is also an issue glute bridge => glute bridge w/alt leg raise( marching) => single leg glute bridge => single leg RDL => RDL

Fourth is balance (neuromuscular efficiency) start with a single leg balance (bare foot on floor) and we can go a couple directions here
1) increase proprioceptive awareness through increased instability
2) increase difficulty through protruberance( sticking a limb out to shift center of gravity)

These stages should progress with each other.

This has been very helpful. Some of the exercises in that exact progression, I hadn't thought of. Are you familiar with the functional movement screen system? I believe it's FMS? If you are, then I'm assuming static progressions would follow something similar to those guidelines in activating the hip.

yes and no, I have read his book athletic body in balance and use the overhead squat test on ALL of my clients, but haven't really used the others in awhile. As for his progressions....well...he is way smarter than me lol so while I follow similar guidelines I don't quite grasp his movement training yet. I also have his new book but haven't had the time to really read it yet. I tend to go with Mike Boyle's training format with some additions from my own choosing depending on the situation. Boyle's book Advances in Functional Training is a great book!

My actual hip progression is a mix of Cook, Boyle, NASM, Mcgill, and my personal experience with gluteal amnesia due to sciatic damage. I have also worked with about 2 dozen "problem children" from the Air Force Base that I worked on for 2 years..lots of back (really hip) issues on that base.

By the way I would love to do his FMS course but nobody ever comes up to Alaska to do anything like that.

I volunteered at a local college's strength & conditioning department and was able to have some hands on experience working with FMS. Like yourself I only use a handful of the assessments, but I do believe that they give me valuable information regarding a client's function and movement patterns. I'll have to get a copy of Mike Boyle's book. What are your opinions on Mark Verstegen's approach and his book Core Performance?

I like the sound of these workouts. I like to pair jumps with squats, such as Box squats with split leg jumps.

Yes split lunges using the arms bringing both forward as you leap and switch legs...oneof my favorites. My class feels these the next day in the butt!!!

I love squats because there are so many different ways you can do them as well as adding a hop/jump fora plyo ... varying the distance of the legs to hit the hammies or quads, pair up with an upper body exercise, pulsing and varying the count such as 3cts down and 1 ct up or visa versa.

Yeah I know squat!! :)

There are so many ways to do them. Squats with sandbags, squats with kettlebells....

They should rewrite "Green Eggs & Ham" with squats!

Fantastic!!!

Thanks for that quote Michelle, nicely put.

Paul certainly has a way with words, doesn't he?:)

I agree that squats are not for everyone. Check out my blog post (http://blog.ideafit.com/blogs/brent-hartman) that has a reference to an article that talks about 1/2 and 1/3 squats used in a rehabilitation setting. But agreed, people should be evaluated on a case by case basis!

All dancers should squat! : )